My point is that you don't know how many that is true for. Definitely true for some and true for something like Medicaid that you either get or don't get. But I don't think it is true for all. Show me something other th as n a few anecdotal cases. I don't think you can because not only is every state and every family type different but t…
My point is that you don't know how many that is true for. Definitely true for some and true for something like Medicaid that you either get or don't get. But I don't think it is true for all. Show me something other th as n a few anecdotal cases. I don't think you can because not only is every state and every family type different but there are wait lists for some benefits, others that people qualify for but don't even know about, and ones like home energy subsidies that depend on rates and usage.
MY point is that most people are not that stupid when it comes to their lives, and they understand if they take a minumum wage job they will only get to keep the 15% or 25% (or in some cases, -7%!) of the money they would earn (depending on their own situation). Whether they know the exact number or not. They talk to other people in the same situation. People know their situation.
The fact that it is complicated doesn’t make a (positive) case for you.
The relevant point is that the marginal rates for many are VERY. HIGH.
If your responses was that only a few face tax rates >100%, sure. So what?
It's not a question of the recipient seeing it. My point is we can't easily (and are unlikely to) tackle the problem you describe if we don't know the typical marginal rates, only a few anecdotes. You and I might see the problem but are you ever going to convince a liberal who wants to "help people"? I don't think so.
If we took most of the money currently spent on those deemed in need (there are some exceptions we'd probably agree on) and put in a UBI targeted at those with lower income, we could more clearly see the "marginal tax" on additional income.
"By eliminating all such programs and replacing them with UBI, we could do exactly that!
I don't follow. You say I'm wrong but repeat what I said as being correct?
To your ps: You can indeed target a ubi at those with low incomes. You do this by I'm lying it as income and adjusting income tax rates to reduce it for those in the middle and effectively zero it out at higher income.
We can tackle the problem of high marginal tax rates on the poor by ELIMINATING all the other programs - that cause the high marginal tax rates - and replacing them with a UBI - U meaning universal, and so for ALL; if you do something “targeted” you recreate - or exacerbate - the problem of high marginal tax rates!
I am here just restating exactly what AK said in the piece. You, OTOH, keep arguing for something that would make it worse - an oxymoronic “targeted” UBI - and seem to deny the basic fact that by eliminating all those other programs, with their income limits and restrictions and phaseouts - that THAT would eliminate the problem of high marginal tax rates on the poor.
You clearly fail utterly to grok that your “targeted” so-called UBI would create high marginal tax rates (“effectively zero it out” means effectively 100% marginal tax rate)
I'm not sure if you misunderstand me or you just have no idea what a UBI is.
The [basic] in UBI doesn't mean everyone gets more money. It tops off people's existing incomes so everyone gets AT LEAST some minimum. Preferably, people earning a little more still get something extra so they don't suffer extremely high marginal rates of"tax" on earnings. At some point their earnings are high enough that they either aren't given the UBI or they pay it back through income taxes. Everyone can't get an extra $xx,000 from the government even if we eliminate all the existing welfare programs. The money has to be targeted at the poor. Otherwise it's just a plan to reduce existing redistribution. Note this is different than targeting a particular need of the poor.
I’m not sure if YOU understand what “universal” means.
Universal means it goes to everyone.
Your statement that “It tops off people's existing incomes so everyone gets AT LEAST some minimum.” is a completely false understanding of how it works, if you think that means that the UBI doesn’t actually go to everyone.
Yes I understand it can - and should - be paid for with changes to the tax code such that actual rich people don’t end up with more money.
But of course, you COULD easily do it - and in fact that’s what AK proposed - just by the money saved from other welfare programs (in AK’s case he would get more money to the deserving poorer via other mechanisms he described, and pay for that also with the money saved from current programs).
But YOU clearly misunderstand the U in UBI. It is NOT targeted. Everyone gets it, and the only “phaseouts” are at regular marginal income tax rates. Yes, that means everyone. Yes that specifically means that people you and I might consider “undeserving” will get more money [even after any regular income tax rate adjustments you make in order to make it close to revenue neutral, if you’re gonna fund it that way].
If you “target” UBI and insert various other income-based phaseouts, then you are INCREASING marginal tax rates on the people receiving UBI. That’s what phaseouts do. And you have LITERALLY violated the U in UBI, while ALSO violating the goal we are talking about here of reducing high marginal income tax rates on the poor.
By the way, while you and I might surely agree that it would be an *unwise* / “mean” policy, your statement that “Everyone can't get an extra $xx,000 from the government even if we eliminate all the existing welfare programs” is simply false. You clearly have NO idea how much money gets spent on all federal welfare programs.
Perhaps you should reread AK’s piece after first rereading what a UBI is.
1. I changed the focus from universal to basic by a small edit in my previous comment. (Literally just changed universal to basic.) I kind of already knew that before but you've made it clearer to me. Basic means assuring everyone has some minimum. It does not mean everyone gets it, though that could be done at some minimal level.
2. You are right that what AK suggested, something like $5k for a family of four, could be done. I should have addressed that in this thread. As I mentioned the last time he proposed that, it would be a huge drop in resources focused on the poor. Medicaid spending alone (which reimburses Drs. and hospitals less than Medicare or any any private insurance) is over $5k/adult and something close to that for kids. Ending that subsidy along with housing, food, and everything else would mean 18.8% of the population (who gets Medicaid) would get a huge drop in support. AK's UBI would be a new minimum in the sense that it would take away most of the support currently given to low income people. If that's what you want, fine, but we are talking about completely different scenarios.
Ok, finally we’re getting a bit closer to an actual conversation.
You now understand that you are NOT advocating for a UBI, you are advocating for the addition of a “BI” (Basic Income) welfare program for the poor.
Are you suggesting this as an addition, on top of all the existing federal welfare programs? If not are you suggesting it as a net addition to welfare spending or a net neutral?
Where does the phaseout / cutoff occur? Do you here stand that by making it targeted at only those you deem “poor / deserving” that it will create even HIGHER marginal tax rates on the poor? (Unless, of course, you can eliminate those programs that have the worst effects on marginal tax rates for the poor)?
BTW, while AK proposed a relatively miserly UBI, he didn’t do so to save federal taxpayers dollars spent. (He did it to provide additional incentives to work by removing the significance disincentives towards work of the current system.) His solution for the deserving poor is to provide additional federal money to states and local charities who are much better able to determine who is and is not “deserving” than is any government, and especially the Federal government.
While I am not 100% in agreement with AK on this, I am indeed very broadly aligned.
If you , OTOH, are talking about simply adding a target BI for “the poor”, then you are at almost complete odds with him and me, and we have literally nothing left to discuss.
If you are talking about doing your BI by replacing some other federal welfare programs, then I suppose it’s *possible* you could do it without making the high marginal tax rate problem causing massive disincentive to work and climb the income ladder *worse*, but it would be very difficult to make that problem materially *better*. And in fact addressing that problem is at the core of what AK - and myself - would like to address.
If you *are* indeed interested in addressing that problem, please tell me how anything akin to what I understand is your proposal might do that, and we can continue.
(For me the most difficult issue by far is Medicaid, and prior to looking into it based on this conversation, I had not realized what a larger percentage of the issue Medicaid is.
The rest of it, however politically unlikely it would be that we could get there in the foreseeable future, is straightforward to do to improve the situation and radically reduce the immorality and injustice that it is the poor who face almost all of the highest marginal tax rates in this country, regardless of the good intentions of those who created the current situation.)
My point is that you don't know how many that is true for. Definitely true for some and true for something like Medicaid that you either get or don't get. But I don't think it is true for all. Show me something other th as n a few anecdotal cases. I don't think you can because not only is every state and every family type different but there are wait lists for some benefits, others that people qualify for but don't even know about, and ones like home energy subsidies that depend on rates and usage.
MY point is that most people are not that stupid when it comes to their lives, and they understand if they take a minumum wage job they will only get to keep the 15% or 25% (or in some cases, -7%!) of the money they would earn (depending on their own situation). Whether they know the exact number or not. They talk to other people in the same situation. People know their situation.
The fact that it is complicated doesn’t make a (positive) case for you.
The relevant point is that the marginal rates for many are VERY. HIGH.
If your responses was that only a few face tax rates >100%, sure. So what?
It's not a question of the recipient seeing it. My point is we can't easily (and are unlikely to) tackle the problem you describe if we don't know the typical marginal rates, only a few anecdotes. You and I might see the problem but are you ever going to convince a liberal who wants to "help people"? I don't think so.
If we took most of the money currently spent on those deemed in need (there are some exceptions we'd probably agree on) and put in a UBI targeted at those with lower income, we could more clearly see the "marginal tax" on additional income.
“My point is we can't easily (and are unlikely to) tackle the problem you describe if we don't know the typical marginal rates, only a few anecdotes.”
lol, this is wrong, and *precisely* AK’s point.
By eliminating all such programs and replacing them with UBI, we could do exactly that!
P.S. you CANNOT do a *targeted* UBI! The U in UBI stands for Universal…
"By eliminating all such programs and replacing them with UBI, we could do exactly that!
I don't follow. You say I'm wrong but repeat what I said as being correct?
To your ps: You can indeed target a ubi at those with low incomes. You do this by I'm lying it as income and adjusting income tax rates to reduce it for those in the middle and effectively zero it out at higher income.
We can tackle the problem of high marginal tax rates on the poor by ELIMINATING all the other programs - that cause the high marginal tax rates - and replacing them with a UBI - U meaning universal, and so for ALL; if you do something “targeted” you recreate - or exacerbate - the problem of high marginal tax rates!
I am here just restating exactly what AK said in the piece. You, OTOH, keep arguing for something that would make it worse - an oxymoronic “targeted” UBI - and seem to deny the basic fact that by eliminating all those other programs, with their income limits and restrictions and phaseouts - that THAT would eliminate the problem of high marginal tax rates on the poor.
You clearly fail utterly to grok that your “targeted” so-called UBI would create high marginal tax rates (“effectively zero it out” means effectively 100% marginal tax rate)
I'm not sure if you misunderstand me or you just have no idea what a UBI is.
The [basic] in UBI doesn't mean everyone gets more money. It tops off people's existing incomes so everyone gets AT LEAST some minimum. Preferably, people earning a little more still get something extra so they don't suffer extremely high marginal rates of"tax" on earnings. At some point their earnings are high enough that they either aren't given the UBI or they pay it back through income taxes. Everyone can't get an extra $xx,000 from the government even if we eliminate all the existing welfare programs. The money has to be targeted at the poor. Otherwise it's just a plan to reduce existing redistribution. Note this is different than targeting a particular need of the poor.
I’m not sure if YOU understand what “universal” means.
Universal means it goes to everyone.
Your statement that “It tops off people's existing incomes so everyone gets AT LEAST some minimum.” is a completely false understanding of how it works, if you think that means that the UBI doesn’t actually go to everyone.
Yes I understand it can - and should - be paid for with changes to the tax code such that actual rich people don’t end up with more money.
But of course, you COULD easily do it - and in fact that’s what AK proposed - just by the money saved from other welfare programs (in AK’s case he would get more money to the deserving poorer via other mechanisms he described, and pay for that also with the money saved from current programs).
But YOU clearly misunderstand the U in UBI. It is NOT targeted. Everyone gets it, and the only “phaseouts” are at regular marginal income tax rates. Yes, that means everyone. Yes that specifically means that people you and I might consider “undeserving” will get more money [even after any regular income tax rate adjustments you make in order to make it close to revenue neutral, if you’re gonna fund it that way].
If you “target” UBI and insert various other income-based phaseouts, then you are INCREASING marginal tax rates on the people receiving UBI. That’s what phaseouts do. And you have LITERALLY violated the U in UBI, while ALSO violating the goal we are talking about here of reducing high marginal income tax rates on the poor.
By the way, while you and I might surely agree that it would be an *unwise* / “mean” policy, your statement that “Everyone can't get an extra $xx,000 from the government even if we eliminate all the existing welfare programs” is simply false. You clearly have NO idea how much money gets spent on all federal welfare programs.
Perhaps you should reread AK’s piece after first rereading what a UBI is.
Two things:
1. I changed the focus from universal to basic by a small edit in my previous comment. (Literally just changed universal to basic.) I kind of already knew that before but you've made it clearer to me. Basic means assuring everyone has some minimum. It does not mean everyone gets it, though that could be done at some minimal level.
2. You are right that what AK suggested, something like $5k for a family of four, could be done. I should have addressed that in this thread. As I mentioned the last time he proposed that, it would be a huge drop in resources focused on the poor. Medicaid spending alone (which reimburses Drs. and hospitals less than Medicare or any any private insurance) is over $5k/adult and something close to that for kids. Ending that subsidy along with housing, food, and everything else would mean 18.8% of the population (who gets Medicaid) would get a huge drop in support. AK's UBI would be a new minimum in the sense that it would take away most of the support currently given to low income people. If that's what you want, fine, but we are talking about completely different scenarios.
Ok, finally we’re getting a bit closer to an actual conversation.
You now understand that you are NOT advocating for a UBI, you are advocating for the addition of a “BI” (Basic Income) welfare program for the poor.
Are you suggesting this as an addition, on top of all the existing federal welfare programs? If not are you suggesting it as a net addition to welfare spending or a net neutral?
Where does the phaseout / cutoff occur? Do you here stand that by making it targeted at only those you deem “poor / deserving” that it will create even HIGHER marginal tax rates on the poor? (Unless, of course, you can eliminate those programs that have the worst effects on marginal tax rates for the poor)?
BTW, while AK proposed a relatively miserly UBI, he didn’t do so to save federal taxpayers dollars spent. (He did it to provide additional incentives to work by removing the significance disincentives towards work of the current system.) His solution for the deserving poor is to provide additional federal money to states and local charities who are much better able to determine who is and is not “deserving” than is any government, and especially the Federal government.
While I am not 100% in agreement with AK on this, I am indeed very broadly aligned.
If you , OTOH, are talking about simply adding a target BI for “the poor”, then you are at almost complete odds with him and me, and we have literally nothing left to discuss.
If you are talking about doing your BI by replacing some other federal welfare programs, then I suppose it’s *possible* you could do it without making the high marginal tax rate problem causing massive disincentive to work and climb the income ladder *worse*, but it would be very difficult to make that problem materially *better*. And in fact addressing that problem is at the core of what AK - and myself - would like to address.
If you *are* indeed interested in addressing that problem, please tell me how anything akin to what I understand is your proposal might do that, and we can continue.
(For me the most difficult issue by far is Medicaid, and prior to looking into it based on this conversation, I had not realized what a larger percentage of the issue Medicaid is.
The rest of it, however politically unlikely it would be that we could get there in the foreseeable future, is straightforward to do to improve the situation and radically reduce the immorality and injustice that it is the poor who face almost all of the highest marginal tax rates in this country, regardless of the good intentions of those who created the current situation.)