Israel's internal security apparatus has the legal authority and is fully capable of identifying and finding each individual who crossed over the line into illegal intimidation, violence, etc. and making examples of them sufficiently severe to put a quick and firm end to that activity. It is choosing not to do so, when the activists are on the left.
Same goes for the US - consider the way BLM and Antifa protesters get treated with kid gloves and receive exorbitant sums in sham "settlements" while the January 6 protesters were easily tracked down, thrown into solitary confinement, and had the book thrown at them with sentences exceeding those handed out for homicide. No one on that side is going to "take to the streets" when they know for sure that's what is going to happen to them.
The truth is that all western-style developed countries now have at their disposal all the technological power of the Chinese panopticon surveillance state, it's just that their interest in using it against internal movements is highly selective.
Activists act, they do not think. Parents need to ridicule and dismiss activists as morons. Currently, activists are held in high regard, that needs to change.
The left organized violent riots in every major city across the USA in 2020 to hurt Trump. They looted and burned down stores and police departments in almost every major city throughout the US. Watch videos in May/June of protestors setting fires all around the White House, including St Johns Church. Remember large crowds tearing down fences and launching fireworks towards the white house. Remember, the mockery of Trump hiding in a bunker inside the White House with large mobs committing arson all over the White House? Remember the outrage of Trump's "photo op" visiting St John's Church that had been set on fire?
Remember when the left staged protest events aimed at physical intimidation at the homes of Tucker Carlson and Mitch McConnell and Republican appointed Supreme Court Justices? Remember when various Trump Staffers were physically harassed in public at restaurants. Left wing groups even set up groups to find leading Republican figures in public at restaurants to harass them.
Even before Trump was elected, protesters used violence to shut down rallies and boasted of that. Videos displayed Trump fans pelted with eggs. That's not lethal violence but that's real political violence and it was systemic and widespread. College campuses nation wide praised the protest movements and downplayed the violence. I sat in required courses at a flagship public university and listened to professors praise the protests and downplay violence. NPR gave positive coverage to a book "In Defense of Looting".
It's outrageous to see Kling downplay all of the above as "relatively peaceful", and then be outraged to see the exact same tactics deployed against groups that Kling is sympathetic with. Two wrongs don't make a right of course. I definitely oppose what Kling is describing. But it is hypocritical of Kling to accept these tactics when used against Trump and cry foul when the same thing happens to groups he is sympathetic with.
Next, the left used tactics of organized political violence in 2020 to win. The left weaponized instutitons, notably the intelligence agencies, to reduce/amplify narratives to benefit the Democratic Party. This is cheating and it worked and won the election for the Democrats. Kling recently posted that Trump is a loser and suggested other public figures insult him in public that way. But he's crying foul that the same tactics ultimately defeated the pro-Israel group he mentions.
Lastly, Trump and Trump's fans were very kind to Israel and supporters of Israel and that kindness wasn't reciprocated. Israel should make all the friends they can.
"In 2017, we had “The Resistance” and the “Pussy Hat” protests, which were relatively peaceful. In 2021, we had the January 6 protests, which were relatively disorganized. "
You forgot the big one in between, where the police danced the macarena while the antifa and BLM burned it all down in the name of Floyd. Remember when Trump was nearly color-revolutioned in Washington? The picture with the counter-sniper by his side as he walked to St John's church was powerful. Really a summer to remember.
I find it interesting that AK’s timeline of poltical violence at the end of his comments highlights Pussy Hat protests on the left and Jan 6 on the right to assert the disorganized nature of the violence. Neither were as sustained, violent or organized as ANTIFA and BLM whose actions are clearly violent, coordinated and nationwide and all on the left. There has not been anything comparable on the right. ANTIFA and BLM are everthing he fears and are widely accepted...on the left. The future is here and arrived some time ago. Why the blind spot? I find it amusing that AK holds out Weimar as the future when future is already here. Amusing because that is exactly how Weimar came about. History’s rhymes once again.
This is the result of selective prosecution: the courts are treating similarly situated political terrorists differently because the judges like some terrorists and dislike others. The problem with relying on this method to try to impose one vision on a divided society is really that all modern governments rely on speed, communication, surveillance, and training to use fairly small numbers of guys to discipline very large populations. The legitimacy of the state (which is a fancy way of saying the faith people have in the magic of its laws and institutions) makes up for the rest. If people stop believing in the magic, you have a serious Girardian problem. This type of tyranny corrodes the simple faith in government held by the people, and without that simple faith you do not get to enjoy peace and order.
Even though France held it together until the tanks rolled in, one of the major reasons why the French were incapable of "coming together" in a way that might have prevented the outcome was the level of division. The centrists in France did manage to maintain an illusion of cohesion until the end, but ultimately the whole right wing (center and extreme) went over to Moustache Man the moment it was feasible. This is one of the reasons why the military analysis of France's "strange defeat" is inadequate. The means was present but the will was lacking.
With that out of the way, I think Israel and the US are on different paths. Netanyahu and the Right in Israel are actually growing in supporters, not declining like in the US. Israel isn't open to immigration except for Jewish ones, and the ones who want to live in Israel lean significantly to the right and the ones who are more fertile are much further to the right politically, too. The Left in Israel was only able gain a partial measure of power in the penultimate election because they finally made common cause with the Israeli Arab parties, but that wasn't enough to win a second election and Netanyahu returned to power. In my opinion, Netanyahu's mistake with regards to the judiciary was in not simply making the judges run for popular elections, too.
The J6 protests were only "disorganized" because they were infiltrated by hundreds of FBI agents provocateurs, who committed all the violence (except that done by police) in order to both smear the entire conservative movement and to frame the victims who are now political prisoners. This is what happened at "Unite the Right" as well. The message is that the Right can no longer hold peaceful demonstrations, because the Left-run FBI will always do these things. The FBI operation also purposely cheated VP Pence of his ability to object to the election fraud and have the election decided by the House of Representatives, which would have re-elected Trump. There is doubt as to whether Pence was going to do this anyway; but the point is that by blocking peaceful political protesters in a way that blames the victims, the Left forces and therefore justifies violence should the Right have used any (which it did not).
The same goes for activities like blockading or destroying an opposing political group's offices. When you forcibly prevent peaceful actions to transfer power, you make a response-in-force both necessary and right. To get back to where they are not, the Left must stop it, which is unlikely as long as it works.
a pity if Israel had to commit a historical and political suicide by listening to the ones who shout the loudest. these youngsters are allergic to democracy, they grew up with the idea that if they don't win the game must stop or they should let be winners. drawbacks from having all the luxuries.
Also on the road to Weimar is our massive money printing. The money printing came first here, and it came first in Weimar. Are 2 data points too few to draw causation? Anyone who has a 0% allocation to Bitcoin isn’t playing the probabilities correctly.
Like Handle below, I am basically hopeless and have nothing positive to write. The Left today in the US is only constrained by two things- the armed population and SCOTUS, and they will act to change both of those the minute they control the Presidency and Congress again. They only need to retake the House in 2024, and I think they will do so given their further refining of mail-in-voting tactics.
I guess we will see if there is any fight left in the Right when the federal government comes for the firearms.
One commonality of recent Israeli and US politics is that the right has attempted to use extremely narrow electoral majorities, obtained with less than a majority of the popular vote through quirks of the electoral system, to make sweeping institutional changes that a majority of the population passionately despises. Trump got a 46% not-even-plurality and used it to get three new Supreme Court justices, in collaboration with bare Senate majorities representing less than half the country's people; Netanyahu's coalition parlayed 48% of the vote into 56 MKs and is using that to try to destroy judicial independence entirely.
Whatever that is, it isn't democratic. Right populists claim to represent the Will of the People, but the popular vote results, not to mention the polls, do not bear them out. The structural lesson-- which has been unpopular on both left and right from time to time depending on who is in power-- is that a sound democratic system requires limits on what narrow majorities can achieve, because narrow majorities will inevitably sometimes be elected by passionate minority factions, and the attempt of those factions to impose their will on the majority delegitimizes the system and creates demand for violent protest.
Harassing and threatening people is illegal and even though Philadelphia is controlled by the left, clearly a billionaire has resources to file lawsuits and runa pr campaign against those responsible…why didn’t Kohelet help him fight back? Clearly Israeli right needs to develop a legal and pr counter-strategy as this type of strongarm tactic is standard operating procedure for the left.
Israel's internal security apparatus has the legal authority and is fully capable of identifying and finding each individual who crossed over the line into illegal intimidation, violence, etc. and making examples of them sufficiently severe to put a quick and firm end to that activity. It is choosing not to do so, when the activists are on the left.
Same goes for the US - consider the way BLM and Antifa protesters get treated with kid gloves and receive exorbitant sums in sham "settlements" while the January 6 protesters were easily tracked down, thrown into solitary confinement, and had the book thrown at them with sentences exceeding those handed out for homicide. No one on that side is going to "take to the streets" when they know for sure that's what is going to happen to them.
The truth is that all western-style developed countries now have at their disposal all the technological power of the Chinese panopticon surveillance state, it's just that their interest in using it against internal movements is highly selective.
Re: "In the unhealthy culture, the tribal hostility is too severe and the perceived stakes are too high."
Not only the perceived stakes, but the *actual stakes*, too, are too high.
Power has become more centralized, within States and in the Federal Government.
Federal agencies (law enforcement, public health, regulatory agencies) have become highly politicized and partisan.
Impeachments and prosecutions of political opponents have become normal.
The sheer value of resources allocated directly in appropriations and indirectly by regulations is enormous.
Activists act, they do not think. Parents need to ridicule and dismiss activists as morons. Currently, activists are held in high regard, that needs to change.
The left organized violent riots in every major city across the USA in 2020 to hurt Trump. They looted and burned down stores and police departments in almost every major city throughout the US. Watch videos in May/June of protestors setting fires all around the White House, including St Johns Church. Remember large crowds tearing down fences and launching fireworks towards the white house. Remember, the mockery of Trump hiding in a bunker inside the White House with large mobs committing arson all over the White House? Remember the outrage of Trump's "photo op" visiting St John's Church that had been set on fire?
Remember when the left staged protest events aimed at physical intimidation at the homes of Tucker Carlson and Mitch McConnell and Republican appointed Supreme Court Justices? Remember when various Trump Staffers were physically harassed in public at restaurants. Left wing groups even set up groups to find leading Republican figures in public at restaurants to harass them.
Even before Trump was elected, protesters used violence to shut down rallies and boasted of that. Videos displayed Trump fans pelted with eggs. That's not lethal violence but that's real political violence and it was systemic and widespread. College campuses nation wide praised the protest movements and downplayed the violence. I sat in required courses at a flagship public university and listened to professors praise the protests and downplay violence. NPR gave positive coverage to a book "In Defense of Looting".
It's outrageous to see Kling downplay all of the above as "relatively peaceful", and then be outraged to see the exact same tactics deployed against groups that Kling is sympathetic with. Two wrongs don't make a right of course. I definitely oppose what Kling is describing. But it is hypocritical of Kling to accept these tactics when used against Trump and cry foul when the same thing happens to groups he is sympathetic with.
Next, the left used tactics of organized political violence in 2020 to win. The left weaponized instutitons, notably the intelligence agencies, to reduce/amplify narratives to benefit the Democratic Party. This is cheating and it worked and won the election for the Democrats. Kling recently posted that Trump is a loser and suggested other public figures insult him in public that way. But he's crying foul that the same tactics ultimately defeated the pro-Israel group he mentions.
Lastly, Trump and Trump's fans were very kind to Israel and supporters of Israel and that kindness wasn't reciprocated. Israel should make all the friends they can.
"In 2017, we had “The Resistance” and the “Pussy Hat” protests, which were relatively peaceful. In 2021, we had the January 6 protests, which were relatively disorganized. "
You forgot the big one in between, where the police danced the macarena while the antifa and BLM burned it all down in the name of Floyd. Remember when Trump was nearly color-revolutioned in Washington? The picture with the counter-sniper by his side as he walked to St John's church was powerful. Really a summer to remember.
I find it interesting that AK’s timeline of poltical violence at the end of his comments highlights Pussy Hat protests on the left and Jan 6 on the right to assert the disorganized nature of the violence. Neither were as sustained, violent or organized as ANTIFA and BLM whose actions are clearly violent, coordinated and nationwide and all on the left. There has not been anything comparable on the right. ANTIFA and BLM are everthing he fears and are widely accepted...on the left. The future is here and arrived some time ago. Why the blind spot? I find it amusing that AK holds out Weimar as the future when future is already here. Amusing because that is exactly how Weimar came about. History’s rhymes once again.
This is the result of selective prosecution: the courts are treating similarly situated political terrorists differently because the judges like some terrorists and dislike others. The problem with relying on this method to try to impose one vision on a divided society is really that all modern governments rely on speed, communication, surveillance, and training to use fairly small numbers of guys to discipline very large populations. The legitimacy of the state (which is a fancy way of saying the faith people have in the magic of its laws and institutions) makes up for the rest. If people stop believing in the magic, you have a serious Girardian problem. This type of tyranny corrodes the simple faith in government held by the people, and without that simple faith you do not get to enjoy peace and order.
This dynamic was a major cause behind the collapse of France in the 20th century. See Shirer's "Collapse of the Third Republic" https://archive.org/details/collapseofthirdr00shir.
Even though France held it together until the tanks rolled in, one of the major reasons why the French were incapable of "coming together" in a way that might have prevented the outcome was the level of division. The centrists in France did manage to maintain an illusion of cohesion until the end, but ultimately the whole right wing (center and extreme) went over to Moustache Man the moment it was feasible. This is one of the reasons why the military analysis of France's "strange defeat" is inadequate. The means was present but the will was lacking.
With that out of the way, I think Israel and the US are on different paths. Netanyahu and the Right in Israel are actually growing in supporters, not declining like in the US. Israel isn't open to immigration except for Jewish ones, and the ones who want to live in Israel lean significantly to the right and the ones who are more fertile are much further to the right politically, too. The Left in Israel was only able gain a partial measure of power in the penultimate election because they finally made common cause with the Israeli Arab parties, but that wasn't enough to win a second election and Netanyahu returned to power. In my opinion, Netanyahu's mistake with regards to the judiciary was in not simply making the judges run for popular elections, too.
The J6 protests were only "disorganized" because they were infiltrated by hundreds of FBI agents provocateurs, who committed all the violence (except that done by police) in order to both smear the entire conservative movement and to frame the victims who are now political prisoners. This is what happened at "Unite the Right" as well. The message is that the Right can no longer hold peaceful demonstrations, because the Left-run FBI will always do these things. The FBI operation also purposely cheated VP Pence of his ability to object to the election fraud and have the election decided by the House of Representatives, which would have re-elected Trump. There is doubt as to whether Pence was going to do this anyway; but the point is that by blocking peaceful political protesters in a way that blames the victims, the Left forces and therefore justifies violence should the Right have used any (which it did not).
The same goes for activities like blockading or destroying an opposing political group's offices. When you forcibly prevent peaceful actions to transfer power, you make a response-in-force both necessary and right. To get back to where they are not, the Left must stop it, which is unlikely as long as it works.
a pity if Israel had to commit a historical and political suicide by listening to the ones who shout the loudest. these youngsters are allergic to democracy, they grew up with the idea that if they don't win the game must stop or they should let be winners. drawbacks from having all the luxuries.
Also on the road to Weimar is our massive money printing. The money printing came first here, and it came first in Weimar. Are 2 data points too few to draw causation? Anyone who has a 0% allocation to Bitcoin isn’t playing the probabilities correctly.
Like Handle below, I am basically hopeless and have nothing positive to write. The Left today in the US is only constrained by two things- the armed population and SCOTUS, and they will act to change both of those the minute they control the Presidency and Congress again. They only need to retake the House in 2024, and I think they will do so given their further refining of mail-in-voting tactics.
I guess we will see if there is any fight left in the Right when the federal government comes for the firearms.
One commonality of recent Israeli and US politics is that the right has attempted to use extremely narrow electoral majorities, obtained with less than a majority of the popular vote through quirks of the electoral system, to make sweeping institutional changes that a majority of the population passionately despises. Trump got a 46% not-even-plurality and used it to get three new Supreme Court justices, in collaboration with bare Senate majorities representing less than half the country's people; Netanyahu's coalition parlayed 48% of the vote into 56 MKs and is using that to try to destroy judicial independence entirely.
Whatever that is, it isn't democratic. Right populists claim to represent the Will of the People, but the popular vote results, not to mention the polls, do not bear them out. The structural lesson-- which has been unpopular on both left and right from time to time depending on who is in power-- is that a sound democratic system requires limits on what narrow majorities can achieve, because narrow majorities will inevitably sometimes be elected by passionate minority factions, and the attempt of those factions to impose their will on the majority delegitimizes the system and creates demand for violent protest.
Harassing and threatening people is illegal and even though Philadelphia is controlled by the left, clearly a billionaire has resources to file lawsuits and runa pr campaign against those responsible…why didn’t Kohelet help him fight back? Clearly Israeli right needs to develop a legal and pr counter-strategy as this type of strongarm tactic is standard operating procedure for the left.
After the Republican Party accepted the “one man, one vote, once”, I don’t see why shall the other side yield to the result of the election.