Glenn Loury on the racial wealth gap; Secular religious mysticism; Emily Oster on paid parental leave; Noah Smith on patriotism; Razib Khan's book recommendations
“Once statistical models account for a person’s religious participation, however, religious belief per se does not systematically bring additional benefits.”
I don’t buy that religious belief doesn’t bring systematic benefits. Consider research on the AA program, which has helped as many as 10 million achieve sobriety:
“ A pattern emerged. Alcoholics who practiced the techniques of habit replacement, the data indicated, could often stay sober until there was a stressful event in their lives—at which point, a certain number started drinking again, no matter how many new routines they had embraced. However, those alcoholics who believed, like John in Brooklyn, that some higher power had entered their lives were more likely to make it through the stressful periods with their sobriety intact.” (The Power of Habit)
Wouldn't AA be an example of having that community to help? A club you go to periodically to talk with like minded people and bond over the commitment? Of course, the level of that commitment might well determine most of the effect, and believers might well be more committed, but I don't know. I wonder if very religious people are less likely to be alcoholics than similar non-religious people. (More specifically, people with high religiosity vs low religiosity... I still have a hard time believing that is a word :) )
AA has sort of a spotty history of actual effectiveness from what I had read. Granted, that was like 20 years ago, so I am not up to date! I just recall that the success rate of AA was something pretty close to the success rate of sobering up on your own.
Researchers were predisposed to be unfavorable to AA from the start, but eventually had to reevaluate because while it wasn’t the right fit for everyone, it consistently succeeded in helping a significant number of people.
“Because of the program’s lack of rigor, academics and researchers have often criticized it. AA’s emphasis on spirituality, some claimed, made it more like a cult than a treatment. In the past fifteen years, however, a reevaluation has begun. Researchers now say the program’s methods offer valuable lessons.”
Then researchers looked to explain the program’s success based only on the explicit practices participants adopted—identifying cues that led to drinking, meeting together in a community, having a sponsor. All were important, but ultimately, despite extreme reluctance to attribute benefits to the spiritual elements of the program, too many participants emphasized the role of God for belief to be ignored entirely.
“Researchers hated that explanation. God and spirituality are not testable hypotheses. Churches are filled with drunks who continue drinking despite a pious faith. In conversations with addicts, though, spirituality kept coming up again and again.”
Unsurprisingly, researchers still found a way to write the more religious aspects of belief out of the equation somehow. Giving credence to faith in God as an explanation is simply not very congenial to scientists.
“It wasn’t God that mattered, the researchers figured out. It was belief itself that made a difference… “I wouldn’t have said this a year ago—that’s how fast our understanding is changing,” said Tonigan, the University of New Mexico researcher, “but belief seems critical. You don’t have to believe in God, but you do need the capacity to believe that things will get better.“
I should clarify that Duhigg accepts the researchers’ story that generic ability to believe in yourself or that things will improve is what matters.
The skepticism about that interpretation I hint at in the last paragraph is my own, in part due to personal experience but also because Duhigg doesn’t offer any evidence as to how the researchers “figured out” that it wasn’t belief in God that mattered.
That makes a lot of sense. I would imagine there is a very strong correlation between depression of the "Things are bad and going to stay bad" and alcoholism. I wonder if there is a correlation between religiosity and propensity towards that sort of depression.
I suppose if you wanted to remove the god angle, you would have to differentiate between the more upbeat "God will save you" gods and the less optimistic "Keep the gods happy or they will devour you" types of religions. If you found belief in upbeat religions worked but belief in hostile gods did not, you could say it is just the belief that things will get better doing the work. Of course, the trouble is that there are not so many hostile god religions these days, so that will be hard to do. Any Set worshippers still around? :P
You say "Unfortunately, Joe Biden ..." You should have expected him to be the senile and reprehensible liar he has ever been. He was chosen by those who have been financing the destruction of your country for a long time. You remained silent when they were hiding him in a basement. You got what you deserved and much more.
Unfortunately, Joe Biden's puppeteers are also operating here in Chile and we cannot go fishing. I laugh at anyone surprised by your senile President and all the circus the puppeteers mounted in the WH.
I’m pretty sure the value of maternity leave outweighs the costs: the lost output of the woman. The question is who should bear those costs. The family? Employers (who may be able to shift it to other employees) Or citizens in general. I prefer that it be paid by taxation, ideally a consumption tax.
<i> Roger Ferguson of TIAA nailed it when he pointed to three things to change about Black America that would close the racial wealth gap
1. Higher incomes through education
2. More exposure to equities
3. Enhanced financial literacy</i>
I despair. "More education for Black America will narrow (and eventually close) the wealth gap" has been catechism for the last 50 years. Yet the education gap is just about the same size. Fifty years on! If you have spent any time in K-12, this is astounding because most of the people in K-12 feel terribly guilty about this and desperately want to close "the gap", trying this, that, and the other thing. Nothing has worked, and thus I fear nothing will--certainly not in the next few decades. Arnold, how do you square your agreement with Ferguson and the Null Hypothesis?
(No doubt I am cynical, but I can't help but notice that TIAA is an investment and insurance company for people in education. The man who works for it talks up education and investment. I don't think he is a bad person, just blind to how little more school can actually accomplish.)
"another that vilifies *the* America that actually exists."
Shouldn't Smith be saying, that the 2nd part of America has damn good reason to fear the part that vilifies the idea of America and vilifies the part of America that clearly refuses to kowtow to this vilification of the idea of America"?
Insofar as the patriotic silent majority is politically and ideologically homeless, most of this owes to the bids of these Vilifiers, to demonize all dissent from their (mostly deceitful) dogmas.
The Western world hasn't seem anything like this bunch, since the Nazis were hugely befouling German political culture, starting c. 1930.
To clarify: most Trumpsters don't vilify "the America that actually exists", they express mostly-reasonable fears, that it's the *existing Elites* who've been vilifying *them*, and who've been styling only themselves to be Who We Are.
That is quite disappointing from Oster. The maternity leave literature is simply awful in the "We want X to be true, no matter what" kind of way. I worked with a student 4 or so years ago on a research paper on the matter, and the research is pretty much all the worst sort of sociology crap. One of the biggest issues that goes unaddressed is that extremely few women actually take all the leave that is available; apparently after a month or so most European women want to go back to work.
The very low uptake of the benefits highlights the key issue: almost all the effects of the policies are due to other things going on in the economy, not the policies themselves. For the linked article (which I remember, but might be misremembering particulars, so check yourselves) the (tiny) benefits from the policy change went to those who pay attention to politics enough to know a change was coming (it was not surprising at all) and had the presence of mind to hold off on getting pregnant for a little bit. In other words, parental quality effects should swamp a 2% decrease in high school drop out rates and a 5% increase in wages 30 years later. Not to mention the rather obvious p-hacking involved in picking those results out of the battery they tested.
And man... it is hard to call the papers on the benefits of breast feeding during that leave "literature". It reads more like an infomercial, a pile of benefits of questionable providence with no consideration of costs.
I think my favorite part of the literature though is how paid maternal leave simultaneously makes women less involved in the workforce and more involved. The programs are pushed as a way to allow women to leave the workforce and care for children without missing out on needing income, except in Germany where they expect it will get women to come BACK to the workforce, because apparently in Germany it is more common for women to leave work entirely during the period they are raising kids. So, if your women are working too much to take care of kids, the answer is paid parental leave. If your women are working too little and spending too much time taking care of kids, the answer is paid parental leave.
The answer is paid parental leave... what was the question? Welcome to sociology!
As if the purported "evidence", that such a critique is sacrosanct, clearly has more basis, than had the RussiaGate stuff.
I'll not be *very* shocked if, in ensuing months/ years, the "stolen election *conspiracies*" smear crumbles, maybe even as much as did the RussiaGate crap, and the dissing of the lab-leak theory as "baseless disinfo".
This "stolen election conspiracies" critique hinges much, on deceitful spins of key claims, e.g. by Barr in late Nov. 2020.
“Once statistical models account for a person’s religious participation, however, religious belief per se does not systematically bring additional benefits.”
I don’t buy that religious belief doesn’t bring systematic benefits. Consider research on the AA program, which has helped as many as 10 million achieve sobriety:
“ A pattern emerged. Alcoholics who practiced the techniques of habit replacement, the data indicated, could often stay sober until there was a stressful event in their lives—at which point, a certain number started drinking again, no matter how many new routines they had embraced. However, those alcoholics who believed, like John in Brooklyn, that some higher power had entered their lives were more likely to make it through the stressful periods with their sobriety intact.” (The Power of Habit)
Wouldn't AA be an example of having that community to help? A club you go to periodically to talk with like minded people and bond over the commitment? Of course, the level of that commitment might well determine most of the effect, and believers might well be more committed, but I don't know. I wonder if very religious people are less likely to be alcoholics than similar non-religious people. (More specifically, people with high religiosity vs low religiosity... I still have a hard time believing that is a word :) )
AA has sort of a spotty history of actual effectiveness from what I had read. Granted, that was like 20 years ago, so I am not up to date! I just recall that the success rate of AA was something pretty close to the success rate of sobering up on your own.
The story Duhigg gives goes like this.
Researchers were predisposed to be unfavorable to AA from the start, but eventually had to reevaluate because while it wasn’t the right fit for everyone, it consistently succeeded in helping a significant number of people.
“Because of the program’s lack of rigor, academics and researchers have often criticized it. AA’s emphasis on spirituality, some claimed, made it more like a cult than a treatment. In the past fifteen years, however, a reevaluation has begun. Researchers now say the program’s methods offer valuable lessons.”
Then researchers looked to explain the program’s success based only on the explicit practices participants adopted—identifying cues that led to drinking, meeting together in a community, having a sponsor. All were important, but ultimately, despite extreme reluctance to attribute benefits to the spiritual elements of the program, too many participants emphasized the role of God for belief to be ignored entirely.
“Researchers hated that explanation. God and spirituality are not testable hypotheses. Churches are filled with drunks who continue drinking despite a pious faith. In conversations with addicts, though, spirituality kept coming up again and again.”
Unsurprisingly, researchers still found a way to write the more religious aspects of belief out of the equation somehow. Giving credence to faith in God as an explanation is simply not very congenial to scientists.
“It wasn’t God that mattered, the researchers figured out. It was belief itself that made a difference… “I wouldn’t have said this a year ago—that’s how fast our understanding is changing,” said Tonigan, the University of New Mexico researcher, “but belief seems critical. You don’t have to believe in God, but you do need the capacity to believe that things will get better.“
I should clarify that Duhigg accepts the researchers’ story that generic ability to believe in yourself or that things will improve is what matters.
The skepticism about that interpretation I hint at in the last paragraph is my own, in part due to personal experience but also because Duhigg doesn’t offer any evidence as to how the researchers “figured out” that it wasn’t belief in God that mattered.
That makes a lot of sense. I would imagine there is a very strong correlation between depression of the "Things are bad and going to stay bad" and alcoholism. I wonder if there is a correlation between religiosity and propensity towards that sort of depression.
I suppose if you wanted to remove the god angle, you would have to differentiate between the more upbeat "God will save you" gods and the less optimistic "Keep the gods happy or they will devour you" types of religions. If you found belief in upbeat religions worked but belief in hostile gods did not, you could say it is just the belief that things will get better doing the work. Of course, the trouble is that there are not so many hostile god religions these days, so that will be hard to do. Any Set worshippers still around? :P
You say "Unfortunately, Joe Biden ..." You should have expected him to be the senile and reprehensible liar he has ever been. He was chosen by those who have been financing the destruction of your country for a long time. You remained silent when they were hiding him in a basement. You got what you deserved and much more.
Unfortunately, Joe Biden's puppeteers are also operating here in Chile and we cannot go fishing. I laugh at anyone surprised by your senile President and all the circus the puppeteers mounted in the WH.
I’m pretty sure the value of maternity leave outweighs the costs: the lost output of the woman. The question is who should bear those costs. The family? Employers (who may be able to shift it to other employees) Or citizens in general. I prefer that it be paid by taxation, ideally a consumption tax.
Is the parental leave quote in tention with government provided daycare verse giving the money to parents.
<i> Roger Ferguson of TIAA nailed it when he pointed to three things to change about Black America that would close the racial wealth gap
1. Higher incomes through education
2. More exposure to equities
3. Enhanced financial literacy</i>
I despair. "More education for Black America will narrow (and eventually close) the wealth gap" has been catechism for the last 50 years. Yet the education gap is just about the same size. Fifty years on! If you have spent any time in K-12, this is astounding because most of the people in K-12 feel terribly guilty about this and desperately want to close "the gap", trying this, that, and the other thing. Nothing has worked, and thus I fear nothing will--certainly not in the next few decades. Arnold, how do you square your agreement with Ferguson and the Null Hypothesis?
(No doubt I am cynical, but I can't help but notice that TIAA is an investment and insurance company for people in education. The man who works for it talks up education and investment. I don't think he is a bad person, just blind to how little more school can actually accomplish.)
"another that vilifies *the* America that actually exists."
Shouldn't Smith be saying, that the 2nd part of America has damn good reason to fear the part that vilifies the idea of America and vilifies the part of America that clearly refuses to kowtow to this vilification of the idea of America"?
Insofar as the patriotic silent majority is politically and ideologically homeless, most of this owes to the bids of these Vilifiers, to demonize all dissent from their (mostly deceitful) dogmas.
The Western world hasn't seem anything like this bunch, since the Nazis were hugely befouling German political culture, starting c. 1930.
To clarify: most Trumpsters don't vilify "the America that actually exists", they express mostly-reasonable fears, that it's the *existing Elites* who've been vilifying *them*, and who've been styling only themselves to be Who We Are.
That is quite disappointing from Oster. The maternity leave literature is simply awful in the "We want X to be true, no matter what" kind of way. I worked with a student 4 or so years ago on a research paper on the matter, and the research is pretty much all the worst sort of sociology crap. One of the biggest issues that goes unaddressed is that extremely few women actually take all the leave that is available; apparently after a month or so most European women want to go back to work.
The very low uptake of the benefits highlights the key issue: almost all the effects of the policies are due to other things going on in the economy, not the policies themselves. For the linked article (which I remember, but might be misremembering particulars, so check yourselves) the (tiny) benefits from the policy change went to those who pay attention to politics enough to know a change was coming (it was not surprising at all) and had the presence of mind to hold off on getting pregnant for a little bit. In other words, parental quality effects should swamp a 2% decrease in high school drop out rates and a 5% increase in wages 30 years later. Not to mention the rather obvious p-hacking involved in picking those results out of the battery they tested.
And man... it is hard to call the papers on the benefits of breast feeding during that leave "literature". It reads more like an infomercial, a pile of benefits of questionable providence with no consideration of costs.
I think my favorite part of the literature though is how paid maternal leave simultaneously makes women less involved in the workforce and more involved. The programs are pushed as a way to allow women to leave the workforce and care for children without missing out on needing income, except in Germany where they expect it will get women to come BACK to the workforce, because apparently in Germany it is more common for women to leave work entirely during the period they are raising kids. So, if your women are working too much to take care of kids, the answer is paid parental leave. If your women are working too little and spending too much time taking care of kids, the answer is paid parental leave.
The answer is paid parental leave... what was the question? Welcome to sociology!
Both parties campaign to the right and govern to the left. The elites push to the left and the public pulls back to the right.
"Trump ran as a QAnon Shaman".
Prove it.
I say, he ran more as a splice of Perot and Sailer, but was spun as a QAnon Shaman and a clone of Putin.
The MSM managed this spin well enough, that far too many of the "educated" fell for it.
"stolen election *conspiracies*"!
As if the purported "evidence", that such a critique is sacrosanct, clearly has more basis, than had the RussiaGate stuff.
I'll not be *very* shocked if, in ensuing months/ years, the "stolen election *conspiracies*" smear crumbles, maybe even as much as did the RussiaGate crap, and the dissing of the lab-leak theory as "baseless disinfo".
This "stolen election conspiracies" critique hinges much, on deceitful spins of key claims, e.g. by Barr in late Nov. 2020.