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Joseph's avatar

The rhetoric around this conflict from you and Freddy are examples of bringing more heat than light to the debate, though obviously each of you comes from a radically different point of view.

So Freddy's position boils down: whenever Israel uses military force to neutralize a threat to its country, its a war crime. Israel should become a secular liberal democracy in which palestinians and jews live in harmony and Israel is no longer a jewish nation state. How that would work and how this won't result in the killing of all the jews is unclear. there's underpants gnome theory to the whole thing.

Your position boils down to: kill them all, if necessary. Drop the bombs. Reduce their cities to rubble. Obliterate hamas takes moral priority over all other moral priorities. If this means a million Palestinian children die, so be it. It's hamas fault for being in a civilian population, so israel has zero moral culpability when waging this war even though most of the people that die are civilians many of them kids. Anyone who has humanitarian concerns about how this war is waged or argue for restraint that increases the risk to israeli soliders lives s obviously an anti-semite that wants all the jews to die.

I wish folks would actually clearly articulate outcomes they are trying to achieve, consequences that will arise from them, and moral lines they wouldn't cross for their side. For example, consider Richard Hanania, whose ethnically Palestinian christian. He's been admirably straight forward about his position and the consequences: Israel should ethnically cleanse Gaza.

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BenK's avatar

Arnold;

I have come to some conclusions about much of historical anti-Semitism and current anti-Semitism; some of the conclusions are not novel to me, some are a bit new.

Let's posit, first, that by identifying Jews as a group, a diverse group is lumped together. Some are more vulnerable than others, they fit into society differently, but they are being treated as a group with a name.

Historically, many of the behaviors attributed as negative to 'Jews' - including the tight-knit rapacious moneylender stereotypes - are actually representative of 'Anywheres' and could have been applied to a number of other high-status groups which were for various reasons more difficult to critique. Some Jews really did embody this type, but many did not. Local 'Somewhere' leaders benefited from a negative focus on Jews by blame-shifting and virtue-signaling, including demagogery.

A new class of Anywheres aligned themselves with 'sophistication' and 'liberal ideals' against the 'Somewheres' and in defense of the Jews/against anti-Semitism. This started in the 1800s and built over time.

Meanwhile, particularly in Israel, Jews who were 'Somewheres' had a 'Somewhere' to attempt to govern, and behaved in ways that are labelled 'conservative' by the Anywheres in a derogatory tone. They attracted the admiration of other Somewheres, leading to the apparent paradox of Israel being strongly supported by American Evangelicals.

The progressives [even or especially the liberal American Jews] cannot abide the American or European Somewheres; they weren't on the same side even immediately post 9/11, when the progressives immediately opposed 'vengeance' [and nationalism, etc]. Progressives would champion the Palestinians as their chosen victim to defend, virtue-signal around, instead of 'Zionists.'

Thoughts? Does this capture the phenomenology and explain some seeming contradictions?

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