That's a good comparison for people whose mental model set is at Kegan level* 5. Kegan 5, the fluid mode, is almost certainly a job requirement for startup founders, where you have to invent new roles and abstract systems of relationships rather than fit naturally into preexisting ones - that's Kegan 4 - or fit into them badly with behavioral hacks because you do not yet distinguish between your self and your relationships to other people, like many teenagers - that's Kegan 3. People at Kegan 4 are apt to be upset by your comparison, and people at Kegan 3 might be unable to process the comparison at all.
* I'm still in the middle of Kegan's book In Over Our Heads, but David Chapman of the Meaningness blog (IIRC he commented here once or twice) has multiple extended summaries and explanations of it, e.g. https://vividness.live/developing-ethical-social-and-cognitive-competence. Kegan theory is a hell of a job to summarize, as Chapman says many times, and at least at this point I can't do better than him.
ETA: I should add that what Paul Graham calls "playing [startup] house" does _not_ require Kegan 5, because people playing house are just LARPing with roles they have learned about in school or incubator. It is possible (but not a given) that people playing startup house will level up while doing it, because their lower-level model sets will be challenged from outside by the environment their startup puts them into.
I worked for the same location in basically the same position for my last 31 years. Salary grew beyond expectations and responsibilities grew somewhat too, though I never took a management position. Maybe the best part was I had an incredible amount of independence the last ten years or more. The projects I worked on were varied and changed year to year. Lots of new things, some better than others. I can't say I exactly enjoyed the job but I was always learning and growing.
This post is a great conversation starter. What should you do if you don’t have to work? My kids are most of my work, but without them what should I do? Over-commenting here at In My Tribe? Nope. That’s not the right answer.
Teaching and learning is a worthy project. Plenty to do there. Trying to be a better person.
I was not at all eager to retire when I did. I knew I didn't want to end up in a holding pen, waiting to die. But even before I formally retired, I had developed other interests outside work (as you suggest in this post), and those just kept growing.
I have two jobs on my resume I wish I had stayed at longer. Both were steady if somewhat limiting positions at excellent companies. In both cases, I left for promotion / new opportunity that my current position was not offering (at least, not any time soon). In both cases, I ran into incompetent supervisors who thwarted and wasted the talents of their subordinates, and I ended up leaving after a few years. I am now working part-time in retail, supplementing my income with teaching and freelance work. My partner says I am much happier. I do, however, miss the money.
I'm retired and well off, if not wealthy. But my last 20 years of teaching were mostly enjoyable. In fact, when someone asked what I missed the least, I had to think a bit, and finally decided I really, truly didn't miss choosing new texts. I taught 6-7 different classes routinely, including stats, and I tried to change texts every other time I taught the course. That meant at least skimmng 4-6 possible texts for 3 courses every semester. It was way worse than grading, which whle could be a chore, but was made nteresting by seeng the evolution of my students.
But one thing I always enjoyed was students figuring out that I was very aware of what their lives were like. I pointed out that I PAID attention to them, and that to help them learn I felt I had to "keep up with" what they were experiencing. Now that I'm retired I no longer have that spur, and I'm beginning to feel old. It's kind of sad, really.
I think we forget that even young adults are still exploring their personal environment, and that we can learn by paying attention to them in a real way.
I think most people stay in jobs they don’t like for financial reasons. What else could it be? Fear of the unknown? And if they like it, why leave? Also, most people aren’t interested in learning or growing- mainly security. So I can only assume that this post was not meant for most people. 😄
“That said, I would advise against leaving your job just because you don’t love it. If what you really enjoy is art or music, but your job is in accounting, that is fine. On nights and weekends, you can be an artist or a musician.”
I’ve been seeing reports of how colleges are cutting back on History PhD programs, and I think that’s absolutely excellent. I hope they’re doing the same in the fine arts and other areas.
The word “amateur” is derived from the latin amare / to love. If you’re doing something for the love of it – reading history, playing music – that’s a wonderful thing, and better than having a degree in something or doing that thing professionally (maybe you’re one of the very few people who can make a killing doing this kind of thing for money, if so, good for you, but it’s rare).
A job is tough: as you note, there’s a tendency to see it as who and what you are, as core to one’s identity. I suspect that’s unhealthy. The two happiest times I’ve had in my career are, first, where my job was utterly fulfilling in every dimension, and, second, where my job was well-paying and not overwhelmingly demanding, giving me reasonable time and attention for my other interests and family. The former was fleeting and required a great deal of personal sacrifice; the latter is (I suspect) more sustainable and easier to find, as much of an attitude about what role work is going to play in one’s life as anything else, provided it’s meeting your financial needs.
That said, and while I thought Hiremath’s original post was admirable in its candidness, I would very much like to have to go through the angst he’s currently experiencing…
History programs - I have no knowledge of this but it would seem you said it somewhat backwards. I suspect what is happening is that less students are majoring in history or taking history classes and this leads to staff reductions. And maybe they are just switching to new things like women's studies or black studies.
That's a good comparison for people whose mental model set is at Kegan level* 5. Kegan 5, the fluid mode, is almost certainly a job requirement for startup founders, where you have to invent new roles and abstract systems of relationships rather than fit naturally into preexisting ones - that's Kegan 4 - or fit into them badly with behavioral hacks because you do not yet distinguish between your self and your relationships to other people, like many teenagers - that's Kegan 3. People at Kegan 4 are apt to be upset by your comparison, and people at Kegan 3 might be unable to process the comparison at all.
* I'm still in the middle of Kegan's book In Over Our Heads, but David Chapman of the Meaningness blog (IIRC he commented here once or twice) has multiple extended summaries and explanations of it, e.g. https://vividness.live/developing-ethical-social-and-cognitive-competence. Kegan theory is a hell of a job to summarize, as Chapman says many times, and at least at this point I can't do better than him.
ETA: I should add that what Paul Graham calls "playing [startup] house" does _not_ require Kegan 5, because people playing house are just LARPing with roles they have learned about in school or incubator. It is possible (but not a given) that people playing startup house will level up while doing it, because their lower-level model sets will be challenged from outside by the environment their startup puts them into.
I worked for the same location in basically the same position for my last 31 years. Salary grew beyond expectations and responsibilities grew somewhat too, though I never took a management position. Maybe the best part was I had an incredible amount of independence the last ten years or more. The projects I worked on were varied and changed year to year. Lots of new things, some better than others. I can't say I exactly enjoyed the job but I was always learning and growing.
This post is a great conversation starter. What should you do if you don’t have to work? My kids are most of my work, but without them what should I do? Over-commenting here at In My Tribe? Nope. That’s not the right answer.
Teaching and learning is a worthy project. Plenty to do there. Trying to be a better person.
I was not at all eager to retire when I did. I knew I didn't want to end up in a holding pen, waiting to die. But even before I formally retired, I had developed other interests outside work (as you suggest in this post), and those just kept growing.
I have two jobs on my resume I wish I had stayed at longer. Both were steady if somewhat limiting positions at excellent companies. In both cases, I left for promotion / new opportunity that my current position was not offering (at least, not any time soon). In both cases, I ran into incompetent supervisors who thwarted and wasted the talents of their subordinates, and I ended up leaving after a few years. I am now working part-time in retail, supplementing my income with teaching and freelance work. My partner says I am much happier. I do, however, miss the money.
I'm retired and well off, if not wealthy. But my last 20 years of teaching were mostly enjoyable. In fact, when someone asked what I missed the least, I had to think a bit, and finally decided I really, truly didn't miss choosing new texts. I taught 6-7 different classes routinely, including stats, and I tried to change texts every other time I taught the course. That meant at least skimmng 4-6 possible texts for 3 courses every semester. It was way worse than grading, which whle could be a chore, but was made nteresting by seeng the evolution of my students.
But one thing I always enjoyed was students figuring out that I was very aware of what their lives were like. I pointed out that I PAID attention to them, and that to help them learn I felt I had to "keep up with" what they were experiencing. Now that I'm retired I no longer have that spur, and I'm beginning to feel old. It's kind of sad, really.
I think we forget that even young adults are still exploring their personal environment, and that we can learn by paying attention to them in a real way.
I think most people stay in jobs they don’t like for financial reasons. What else could it be? Fear of the unknown? And if they like it, why leave? Also, most people aren’t interested in learning or growing- mainly security. So I can only assume that this post was not meant for most people. 😄
"It is common to have a very intense relationship with the company you work for. I think of it as like having a spouse."
Yea see I can't relate. I've never been valued enough by a company to have a very intense relationship with it, much less a regular level of intense.
“That said, I would advise against leaving your job just because you don’t love it. If what you really enjoy is art or music, but your job is in accounting, that is fine. On nights and weekends, you can be an artist or a musician.”
I’ve been seeing reports of how colleges are cutting back on History PhD programs, and I think that’s absolutely excellent. I hope they’re doing the same in the fine arts and other areas.
The word “amateur” is derived from the latin amare / to love. If you’re doing something for the love of it – reading history, playing music – that’s a wonderful thing, and better than having a degree in something or doing that thing professionally (maybe you’re one of the very few people who can make a killing doing this kind of thing for money, if so, good for you, but it’s rare).
A job is tough: as you note, there’s a tendency to see it as who and what you are, as core to one’s identity. I suspect that’s unhealthy. The two happiest times I’ve had in my career are, first, where my job was utterly fulfilling in every dimension, and, second, where my job was well-paying and not overwhelmingly demanding, giving me reasonable time and attention for my other interests and family. The former was fleeting and required a great deal of personal sacrifice; the latter is (I suspect) more sustainable and easier to find, as much of an attitude about what role work is going to play in one’s life as anything else, provided it’s meeting your financial needs.
That said, and while I thought Hiremath’s original post was admirable in its candidness, I would very much like to have to go through the angst he’s currently experiencing…
History programs - I have no knowledge of this but it would seem you said it somewhat backwards. I suspect what is happening is that less students are majoring in history or taking history classes and this leads to staff reductions. And maybe they are just switching to new things like women's studies or black studies.