I would rather have Russia's behavior when Trump was president over Russia's behavior when either Obama or Biden have been president. Likewise for oil and natural gas policies, inflation, and what feels like an endless list of other things where the president has a strong, direct or indirect, influence on the outcome.
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis seems to be taking the tack of a slightly higher-brow Trump. He does not have Trump's depth of support among the public. That might change once the primary campaigns commence in earnest -- he certainly has taken anti-elite stances on a number of topics, and has engaged in many facile, soundbite-oriented Twitter exchanges. I've also seen Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin mooted as another more-or-less populist alternative to Trump. Personally, I would like Youngkin to continue to be my governor, rather than spend time campaigning for a higher office and then leaving his last year.
The problem with wanting "unity in this country and warm relationships with the NATO countries" is that, historically, those things have only come at the cost of existential threats. Since the end of the Cold War, US political culture has been a continuing story of brinksmanship and escalating hostility. Relationships with NATO countries have been strained in part because we were willing to spend lots of our GDP to protect Europe, they took advantage of it, and Trump publicly insisted they meet their NATO obligations. Their tentative steps to satisfy those obligations have been spurred further by the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Russia attacked when it did because the Russians judged that this was their last chance to do something about what they see as the threat of a hostile Ukraine. They'd have done the same thing if Trump were president.
The only difference would be that the odds of mushroom clouds with Trump's unsteady hand at the wheel would be several times worse than the danger we face today.
Can't disagree with anything you said. "Unity in this country and warm relationships with the NATO countries" died long before Trump descended on the escalator.
Agree. Trump was the "grenade" tossed at the establishment to reframe issues and get the Republican base engaged. As Democrats have moved Left, Republicans need to take ground in the center. Trump is not that person. DeSantis is.
I think people overestimate the extent to which R's will blindly follow Trump in comparison to the extent Trump enables long time and more id-like fantasies of many R's. The "stop the steal" and resulting election "reforms" in red states are a prime example of the latter. So many R's I know have long felt that America, elections, etc. are being outright stolen from them, and it has often been just below the surface in the rhetoric of leaders with national prominence. Trump's power here is his utter shamelessness to assert what they all feel without evidence and thereby allow them to unite behind someone to legitimize explicit versions of these fantasies. It's not Trump's traits alone that are dangerous here, but the way he give succor to the ids of so much R political fantasy
I have two responses to the notion that Trump possesses dark triad personality traits.
First, I don't think this is true. I'd say the biggest mistakes of his Presidency were assuming that the media and the bureaucracy could actually come around to liking him. He seems to desire being liked and accepted more than anything else. The exact opposite of what a dark triad personality would want.
Second, setting aside my previous point for a moment and assuming that he does have dark triad traits, why is that necessarily bad in a leader? One of my favorite political science books is Burnham's "The Machiavellians." Among many other great arguments, he does suggest that a leader that is a jerk on behalf of the interests of his country is good. If really nice presidents were best, Carter would probably have been our best President and surely FDR, Jefferson and a few other noteworthy ones would have been our worst. The reality seems rather opposite that.
Agreed - I yield to no one in my dislike of FDR. I think it's a reasonable example for my point though, since the mainstream of view of FDR is that he was a good President, but not a nice guy.
Ahh ok, I misunderstood a bit then. I was thinking "Man, Carter was awful but nice, and FDR was awful and kind of a prick... not sure I follow." If the question isn't actual performance but perceived performance, yea, people seem to like those dark triad types a lot. Probably why those traits persist in the gene pool.
I would say that his boastfulness suggests a desire to impress rather than to be liked. I googled grandiose narcissism and here's what I found are common characteristics of this disorder:
A need for admiration
A lack of empathy
An exaggerated sense of importance
Persistent fantasies of increased success, power, happiness, love, intelligence, or physical appearance
A belief that they are so special that they should only associate with other special people
A belief that they should receive special attention, treatment, and gifts
A tendency to take advantage of other people or situations to fulfill their goals
Lacking care, compassion, and empathy for others
Being envious of others and thinking that others are envious of them
Appearing arrogant, conceited, or self-absorbed
I would ascribe more than a couple of the items on that list to Mr. Trump, but your mileage may vary.
I think that overall, Trump's achievements in office were obscured by his odd personality. Pre-covid, the economy was doing very well, he made inroads in cutting regulation, his Supreme Court nominations were good, he kept the country out of military conflagrations, and cutting corporate taxes was the right thing to do. The tariff thing was a bust for me, but there is no such thing as perfection. A more "normal" president probably would have sailed through to reelection on that kind of record.
Having said that, I think it would be a big mistake politically for the GOP to nominate him for 2024. Centrist democrats and independents have become increasingly unenthused about the Democratic party, particularly its "progressive" drift. If there is anything out there that could reinvigorate them more than the prospect of the return of Trump, I don't know what it would be. If the GOP picks a center-right candidate who is perceived as a decent human being, I think the odds for victory go up significantly. Of course, 2024 is a long way away and anything can happen between now and then.
I like mustard myself. Russia produces mustard. There isn’t going to be any mustard on grocery shelves in a few weeks. Russian oil yes. Mustard seeds no. Trump or Biden? We don’t have that choice. We got and have Biden handlers. The “mandates” and imprudence will get much, much worse.
I would rather have Russia's behavior when Trump was president over Russia's behavior when either Obama or Biden have been president. Likewise for oil and natural gas policies, inflation, and what feels like an endless list of other things where the president has a strong, direct or indirect, influence on the outcome.
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis seems to be taking the tack of a slightly higher-brow Trump. He does not have Trump's depth of support among the public. That might change once the primary campaigns commence in earnest -- he certainly has taken anti-elite stances on a number of topics, and has engaged in many facile, soundbite-oriented Twitter exchanges. I've also seen Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin mooted as another more-or-less populist alternative to Trump. Personally, I would like Youngkin to continue to be my governor, rather than spend time campaigning for a higher office and then leaving his last year.
The problem with wanting "unity in this country and warm relationships with the NATO countries" is that, historically, those things have only come at the cost of existential threats. Since the end of the Cold War, US political culture has been a continuing story of brinksmanship and escalating hostility. Relationships with NATO countries have been strained in part because we were willing to spend lots of our GDP to protect Europe, they took advantage of it, and Trump publicly insisted they meet their NATO obligations. Their tentative steps to satisfy those obligations have been spurred further by the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Russia attacked when it did because the Russians judged that this was their last chance to do something about what they see as the threat of a hostile Ukraine. They'd have done the same thing if Trump were president.
The only difference would be that the odds of mushroom clouds with Trump's unsteady hand at the wheel would be several times worse than the danger we face today.
Can't disagree with anything you said. "Unity in this country and warm relationships with the NATO countries" died long before Trump descended on the escalator.
Agree. Trump was the "grenade" tossed at the establishment to reframe issues and get the Republican base engaged. As Democrats have moved Left, Republicans need to take ground in the center. Trump is not that person. DeSantis is.
I think people overestimate the extent to which R's will blindly follow Trump in comparison to the extent Trump enables long time and more id-like fantasies of many R's. The "stop the steal" and resulting election "reforms" in red states are a prime example of the latter. So many R's I know have long felt that America, elections, etc. are being outright stolen from them, and it has often been just below the surface in the rhetoric of leaders with national prominence. Trump's power here is his utter shamelessness to assert what they all feel without evidence and thereby allow them to unite behind someone to legitimize explicit versions of these fantasies. It's not Trump's traits alone that are dangerous here, but the way he give succor to the ids of so much R political fantasy
I have two responses to the notion that Trump possesses dark triad personality traits.
First, I don't think this is true. I'd say the biggest mistakes of his Presidency were assuming that the media and the bureaucracy could actually come around to liking him. He seems to desire being liked and accepted more than anything else. The exact opposite of what a dark triad personality would want.
Second, setting aside my previous point for a moment and assuming that he does have dark triad traits, why is that necessarily bad in a leader? One of my favorite political science books is Burnham's "The Machiavellians." Among many other great arguments, he does suggest that a leader that is a jerk on behalf of the interests of his country is good. If really nice presidents were best, Carter would probably have been our best President and surely FDR, Jefferson and a few other noteworthy ones would have been our worst. The reality seems rather opposite that.
I am not so sure FDR ranks among the top presidents. His policies made the country an absolute mess, with knock on effects lasting into this century.
Agreed - I yield to no one in my dislike of FDR. I think it's a reasonable example for my point though, since the mainstream of view of FDR is that he was a good President, but not a nice guy.
Ahh ok, I misunderstood a bit then. I was thinking "Man, Carter was awful but nice, and FDR was awful and kind of a prick... not sure I follow." If the question isn't actual performance but perceived performance, yea, people seem to like those dark triad types a lot. Probably why those traits persist in the gene pool.
I would say that his boastfulness suggests a desire to impress rather than to be liked. I googled grandiose narcissism and here's what I found are common characteristics of this disorder:
A need for admiration
A lack of empathy
An exaggerated sense of importance
Persistent fantasies of increased success, power, happiness, love, intelligence, or physical appearance
A belief that they are so special that they should only associate with other special people
A belief that they should receive special attention, treatment, and gifts
A tendency to take advantage of other people or situations to fulfill their goals
Lacking care, compassion, and empathy for others
Being envious of others and thinking that others are envious of them
Appearing arrogant, conceited, or self-absorbed
I would ascribe more than a couple of the items on that list to Mr. Trump, but your mileage may vary.
Bravo. Eloquent, and right on point. Trump needs to go, for the sake of the country.
I think that overall, Trump's achievements in office were obscured by his odd personality. Pre-covid, the economy was doing very well, he made inroads in cutting regulation, his Supreme Court nominations were good, he kept the country out of military conflagrations, and cutting corporate taxes was the right thing to do. The tariff thing was a bust for me, but there is no such thing as perfection. A more "normal" president probably would have sailed through to reelection on that kind of record.
Having said that, I think it would be a big mistake politically for the GOP to nominate him for 2024. Centrist democrats and independents have become increasingly unenthused about the Democratic party, particularly its "progressive" drift. If there is anything out there that could reinvigorate them more than the prospect of the return of Trump, I don't know what it would be. If the GOP picks a center-right candidate who is perceived as a decent human being, I think the odds for victory go up significantly. Of course, 2024 is a long way away and anything can happen between now and then.
I like mustard myself. Russia produces mustard. There isn’t going to be any mustard on grocery shelves in a few weeks. Russian oil yes. Mustard seeds no. Trump or Biden? We don’t have that choice. We got and have Biden handlers. The “mandates” and imprudence will get much, much worse.