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forumposter123@protonmail.com's avatar

It's entirely possible that annexation would be better than autonomy. A legitimate gripe about the autonomy deal is that it would give Putin power inside Ukraines parliament. Smart commentators noted that autonomy was probably more pro-Putin then annexation.

If Donbass was just annexed this could be avoided. The autonomy thing seems more about saving face (pretending that borders are sacrosanct) than finding a good workable solution.

Zelensky tried to implement Minsk, as promising to end the Donbass war was part of his landslide victory, including going out to Donbass and telling the nazies that he wasn't some loser they could push around. However, when push came to shove it turned out they could push him around. It probably doesn't help that the oligarch behind Zelensky funds Azov and other far right military groups and uses them as a personal army.

And of course the west encouraged Zelensky to take a hard line stand, which he eventually came around to after realizing he couldn't actually command the army in Donbas anyway.

I still think the fundamental problem with Ukraine is that it isn't a natural country. People in the middle provinces could probably get along, but the far west and far east are just fundamentally at odds.

Today I saw a picture from an Azov base in Maripoul. The DPR capture it and they found a woman's corpse in the basement. It had been tortured and a bloody swastika carved into her stomach. Maybe you can say this is propaganda, but I've seen plenty of images and videos like this from all over Ukraine, most of it uploaded by Ukranians. How can somebody from Maripoul and somebody from Lviv ever get along. A divorce makes a lot more sense.

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Mark's avatar

There's a lot of daylight between 'Putin is rational, self-interested, and driven by totally-legitimate security interests' and 'Putin is Hitler.' First, I think it's clear that Putin wasn't just looking for neutrality and the eastern breakaway regions recognized, he wanted to subsume the whole of Ukraine, whether by annexation or installing a puppet regime; when I see people writing as if they think he just wanted neutrality and the eastern regions, it's self-discrediting at this point.

Anyway, the rule of balance of power politics is that a nation will expand its influence and territory until its hegemony matches its military might, or contract in influence and territory as the case may be. In order for Russia to reach the point where it's willing to accept neutrality + independence for Donetsk/Luhansk or something like that, it had to be made to realize that it wasn't as militarily powerful as it thought it was, enough to take the whole country at a tolerable cost. It wasn't just a matter of the parties not 'negotiating hard enough.' Sometimes wars have to be fought so nations can learn what they are or aren't capable of.

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