Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Mike Maletic's avatar

Ok, relevant topic: In my experience the 150 number sort of holds up. Perhaps it’s somewhat lower. Maybe 100 or so. But it may vary depending on domain.

The post caused me to re-think what has been a mystery of my work experience: Without going into too much detail, I had a job where I was effective for a period of time, and then suddenly found myself bogged down in politics. I frequently complained that I was spending more time negotiating deals with my internal colleagues than with external counterparties. The group and company were growing tremendously, and this effect probably occurred somewhere around the 100-200 mark. As it turns out, I abandoned the team to go work on a new initiative, made up of about 30 people. That group too quickly grew to about 2000 and became completely unwieldy, ultimately leading to its failure. (This was at a company that likes to think of itself as “the world’s biggest startup”, which really just means that it pays very little attention to developing an effective bureaucracy.)

Amazon famously (apocraphally?) has it’s “no meeting with more people than can be fed by one pizza” rule. That would suggest another rule perhaps around 10 people or so. That rule seems to correlate to my experience as well, and to sports teams generally (11 is a common number for team sports with large organized groups).

I wonder how much these numbers correlate to the size of various divisions in military organizations. And I wonder whether the size of those organizations changes during wartime, when you’d think coordination problems would be different and high-stakes than in peace time?

For me, I wonder now, how many workplace issues that one would tend to attribute to “personality differences” are effectively attributable to organizational structure, and indeed, attributable to a simple variable like average group size.

Expand full comment
John Alcorn's avatar

Informal social control is a crucial private-governance mechanism in groups and orgs of any size, insofar as networks form, norms emerge, gossip circulates, and individuals care about reputation and its consequences.

Student-athletes tell me that sports teams have a bedrock norm in dispute-resolution: "It never turns out well when coach gets involved." Accordingly, they live by informal social control, in which captains play a focal role.

Good managers expect subordinates "to work it out" in day-to-day frictions. Employees have contempt for colleagues who go straight to the top in dispute-resolution.

Cop shows always showcase informal social control in the force, as well as mistrust of complex organization (esp. 'encroachment' by other branches of the force, and 'internal affairs' sub-orgs).

Good CEOs worry about boundaries of the firm (what to outsource), incentives (principal-agent problems) *and* firm culture.

The Dunbar number plays a substantial role in super-Dunbar orgs, via emergent informal social control.

Expand full comment
21 more comments...

No posts