Cowen Argues with Haidt
in a live conversation
Tyler Cowen talks to Jonathan Haidt. You can find a transcript there, or you could read Zvi's notes. And if you want even more reactions than mine or Zvi’s, try feeding the transcript into one of the chatbots and ask for commentary from The RamBam, or whoever.
Haidt says,
The reason why I’m so concerned about screen time is, first and foremost, the opportunity cost. This is an odd thing about my book. People might expect it to be about social media is bad and screens are bad, but half of it is about childhood. What is childhood? How does it work? And how important play is.
Tyler says,
At Emergent Ventures, we support many teenagers, young women. Many of them not 13 years old, but very often 16 to 19 years old. They’re doing science. They’re remarkably smart. They get in touch with their collaborations and with each other using social media. They exchange information. They’re doing phenomenally well. They’re an incredible generation, smarter, more dynamic, probably more productive than any other scientific generation ever, and that’s because of social media. Now, you might think the costs outweigh that, but there’s no mention in your book of the benefits that I can see.
Haidt’s response: Internet good, social media bad. Don’t confuse the two.
Tyler gives a ton of pushback to Haidt. Haidt tries to avoid endorsing government intervention in children’s use of media, but he does endorse having government pressure social media companies into trying to deter use by young people.
I think that commentators are getting too hung up on Haidt the statistical researcher. If you want to challenge his evidence that smart phones are a problem, then you can find lots of “gotchas.” But if you agree that children today are too supervised and too much indoors, then you should be siding with Haidt, not nitpicking him.
I, too, don’t like the trends in childhood. But the worst trends are demographic, including the decline in two-parent families and the decline in large families. I am skeptical that social media regulation is a useful point of intervention to make a big positive difference in childhood.
If I could push a button to change culture, I would try to induce better childhood experiences. For boys, I advocate physical play, play outdoors, and groups that organize themselves without adult supervision. That is what I remember enjoying as a boy, and it is what Joyce Benenson says is most natural.
What about for girls? My daughters seemed to enjoy getting together with friends, making up plays, and acting in those plays. They turned out well.
I probably end up closer to Tyler’s hands-off approach to social media. But my daughters grew up before social media took off. Perhaps if I had an eleven-year-old daughter today I would be more in favor of regulation.
I do know that in my high school teaching days I detected a sharp drop in maturity and self-confidence between the seniors who graduated in 2002 and those who graduated in 2014-2016. So I am not ready to dismiss completely Haidt’s inclination to attribute this to smart phones and social media.
substacks referenced above:
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Cowen, "Let me offer a representative counterexample which is a set whose members are some of the most exceptionally gifted young people in the whole world, who possess the extraordinarily rare mix of attributes that make them highly likely to successfully lead cutting edge projects to completion, as defined by me, since I personally selected them on that basis, and literally wrote a whole book on how to scout for elite talent."
Come on man, you've got to be kidding me with this.
Smart phones and social media are evil—a necessary evil. I was the last person to get a smartphone phone, and before that, even refused to text on a dumb phone, but it is very difficult to live in this world without a smartphone or texting. It is too awkward and inefficient.
I knew that being on Facebook and having a smartphone would cause me enormous distractions, so I quit Facebook before getting a smartphone phone.
My oldest child hates smartphones and the internet because they take away from me being with her.
For years after getting a smartphone, I kept all apps off my phone, but I now have the Substack app on my phone. Its little push notifications that vibrate my wrist and pocket are a great source of “distraction and connectedness.”
Over the past decade I have quit all social media, including Gmail and LinkedIn; I despise YouTube, and Google, and avoid them as much as possible. I am a “purist,” as much as I can be.
But as you know, I do Substack. In My Tribe and other Substacks like yours are huge “distractions.” I occasionally delete the Substack app, and free myself of them for a day or two, but chatting with other Substackers is too fun. I download it again. Posting comments is too fun. Reading your posts, too educational. I know I should not be starting my day with Substack. It’s sets poor tone for the day.
How should I start my day? https://open.substack.com/pub/scottgibb/p/how-shall-i-start-my-day?r=nb3bl&utm_medium=ios
Not on Substack as I am doing right now.
My kids will not be getting smartphones until they turn 18. They don’t attend and will never attend a public K-12 school as long as I’m alive. Public schools have many problems, cell phone and social media being two of many.
Laptops with internet are evil too. “Some people” wake up, sit down at the breakfast table with their bowl of oatmeal and silently read the news on their laptop rather than participate in breakfast table conversation. “They” also sneak off to the back room and quietly stream, rather than watch the family movie.
Once, one member of the family starts down this path, it pushes the others to do the same.
People want to connect either in person or online. If some family members are online, then the others in the room or house are alone—sort of abandoned.
What is the solution? Discipline. Strict rules of internet conduct implemented at the family level. I myself need to implement these rules for myself because I am this biggest abuser.
For public schools, the solution is to “get rid of public schools.”
For public policy, I have nothing to contribute other than “leave us alone.”
For my own family, I am working towards moving us more outside, to be more connected with our neighbors and community.
I’m an advocate for children going outside and playing. I want to live in a neighborhood where there is lots of outdoor play, and many in person book clubs.
I want In My Tribe to be in person in my neighborhood. We need more walk and talks.