University City was not black in the late '60's or even the '70's or '80's. It was mixed. I know because my then wife grew up there.
I've got to sneak in a reference to my favourite food outlet in Clayton, which I suspect you might be familiar with: The Posh Nosh, with its bottomless tubs of dill pickles.
U. City as a whole was mixed, but not the neighborhood around what was then University Forest Elementary School. There were no blacks as of 1964. There were hardly any whites as of 1967. I would be surprised if your wife lived anywhere near the intersection of Canton Avenue and Partridge Avenue.
She grew up in the Parkview neighborhood, adjacent to Wash U.
btw, I lived in U. City for ~ 10 years in the Loop; also, across Skinker Blvd on Westminister Ave [across the street from William Burroughs' family home]. Both neighborhoods were integrated in the late '70's, '80's.
Odd how connections work. This made me think of Tom T. Hall because he wrote a song called "I remember the day Clayton Delany died" which is about a man called Lonnie Easterly who taught Tom to play guitar (and drink beer).
"When I got to Swarthmore College, I found that my classmates there were not nearly as smart as my high school chums."
My brother went to Swarthmore near the same time as you and you've prompted me to ask him if it was harder than his high school (different than me because the boundary changed). The school with near all the doctor, lawyer, etc. parents was on the opposite side of town, which ironically also included the slummiest part of town.
Deciding between Hopkins and Swarthmore I took Hopkins because I had a full ride. It was WAY harder than my mostly blue collar high school and I only had a couple high school classmates close to that level. One double majored in physics and math in three years, somewhat later in life becoming a Catholic priest. Two others went to the AF Academy and Naval Academy. I don't think the latter was the highest level though.
I asked Claude, which said that scores were "re-centered" in 1995 so that "On the high end, a verbal score of 730 on the old scale is now awarded a perfect 800 and a math score of 780 on the old scale is now scored as 800."
That would have boosted several of our scores to the maximum of 800. Claude mentions some other factors as well.
How many National Merit Scholars were there? My PSATs were high enough to be among the semi-finalists, and I got an offer of early admissions to Haverford, but decided on the Naval Academy the next year. (2 years later transferred out.)
myself, Nick R, Krentz, and five others. That is 8 out of a class of 180. Just looking at the Yearbook picture to answer your question brought back memories of how competitive we all were. Like I was thinking "Hey, Tom (my friend) didn't make it! Adzick didn't make it, either!" different era
K-12 nowadays discourages explicit competition. For example, no teacher would be allowed to put on the classroom wall the results of the latest test for each student. Much less put up ranked lists of the people in the class.
This makes for a more comfortable environment for most females and a less challenging one for males, one of the many reasons that males do considerably worse in school than females.
Hadn't even crossed my mind but it probably should have. I can see how it is likely to increase the share of women with top scores but I'm not pretty sure it wouldn't for minorities.
I went to Wash U (Hyman Minsky was briefly my advisor.) In 1976-77 I cooked at a local singles restaurant named "The Leather Bottle" and became the chef after graduating. It was in the department store "Famous Barr" or something like that. Back then, every restaurant was a singles restaurant. The Goodle Days, as John Hartford would say.
Famous-Barr opened in Clayton in 1948. It was part of the May Department Store empire. One of the heirs was an upper-class star swimmer and water polo player when I was a freshman at Clayton High.
The owners wanted to have the store in University City, but NIMBYs would not let them. This dealt a blow to the U City tax base from which it never recovered.
When I asked google for the etymology of the idiom it couldn't come up with anything that wasn't vague. When I asked chatgpt to explain the phrase and then give an etymology it was a good quite specific answer. "The expression “a good place to be from” appears to have emerged around the 1940s–1960s, often used by veterans, migrants, or college-educated rural Americans who left their small towns for bigger opportunities." "The line may have gained traction in the 1970s–1980s, especially in the Midwest, as economic shifts (e.g., farm crises) led more young people to leave."
I went to get pizza soon after moving to St. Louis in the mid-80s. It was provided through a slot in bulletproof glass. I thought it was cool and didn't worry about it. I loved living in the CWE, knowing there was danger close by.
It was the first time I had exposure to Jewish folks and the rich kids from neighborhoods like Ladue. When you are from a poor rural area, that was pretty cool too. Got teased about being a Southern Baptist and attended an American Baptist church, which was about as rebellious as I get.
I liked the Hill; places like Ragazzies, although I was scared of places that served beer at first. Bullet-proof glass at Pizza Hut was o.k. Places like Talayna's were for after you get married (at least for me), although I didn't know it then.
Wow, small world. I am less than two months younger than Altman and went to Wash U in the mid-aughts.
Some of my favorite (admittedly nichey) posts of yours/Arnold’s are the descriptions of Clayton/STL in the 20th century. There was a lot that seemed weird to me about how STL worked, being an outsider almost entirely confined to The Wash U Bubble, and reading about the recent(ish) history of the area helps put into context some of the area’s idiosyncrasies. Thanks!
Happily there is nothing “distinctly odious” about modern ̶s̶e̶g̶r̶e̶g̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ living arrangements.
I think it’s cool how we can see from our vantage how people used to make such uniformly poor decisions, with no regard for anything either rational or human, whereas now, we would never make such errors, and selfish ones at that. We know that nothing we do is based on any sort of misconception about what is possible or desirable, nor ever something we would not be able to articulate - but instead fine-spirited always.
It’s a good feeling because the news tries to make you doubt, about urban trends, and city life - but you are safe in the knowledge it’s the least distinctly odious of all possible worlds, because free of the prejudices and compromises and foibles of past people.
University City was not black in the late '60's or even the '70's or '80's. It was mixed. I know because my then wife grew up there.
I've got to sneak in a reference to my favourite food outlet in Clayton, which I suspect you might be familiar with: The Posh Nosh, with its bottomless tubs of dill pickles.
U. City as a whole was mixed, but not the neighborhood around what was then University Forest Elementary School. There were no blacks as of 1964. There were hardly any whites as of 1967. I would be surprised if your wife lived anywhere near the intersection of Canton Avenue and Partridge Avenue.
You are correct
I just looked up that neighborhood on Google Maps
Never spent any time in that part of University City!
She grew up in the Parkview neighborhood, adjacent to Wash U.
btw, I lived in U. City for ~ 10 years in the Loop; also, across Skinker Blvd on Westminister Ave [across the street from William Burroughs' family home]. Both neighborhoods were integrated in the late '70's, '80's.
Odd how connections work. This made me think of Tom T. Hall because he wrote a song called "I remember the day Clayton Delany died" which is about a man called Lonnie Easterly who taught Tom to play guitar (and drink beer).
"When I got to Swarthmore College, I found that my classmates there were not nearly as smart as my high school chums."
My brother went to Swarthmore near the same time as you and you've prompted me to ask him if it was harder than his high school (different than me because the boundary changed). The school with near all the doctor, lawyer, etc. parents was on the opposite side of town, which ironically also included the slummiest part of town.
Deciding between Hopkins and Swarthmore I took Hopkins because I had a full ride. It was WAY harder than my mostly blue collar high school and I only had a couple high school classmates close to that level. One double majored in physics and math in three years, somewhat later in life becoming a Catholic priest. Two others went to the AF Academy and Naval Academy. I don't think the latter was the highest level though.
"back when high SAT scores were harder to get"
My curiosity is piqued. Did the test get easier, the tutoring and strategizing better, or something else? And on what basis can we conclude this?
I asked Claude, which said that scores were "re-centered" in 1995 so that "On the high end, a verbal score of 730 on the old scale is now awarded a perfect 800 and a math score of 780 on the old scale is now scored as 800."
That would have boosted several of our scores to the maximum of 800. Claude mentions some other factors as well.
How many National Merit Scholars were there? My PSATs were high enough to be among the semi-finalists, and I got an offer of early admissions to Haverford, but decided on the Naval Academy the next year. (2 years later transferred out.)
myself, Nick R, Krentz, and five others. That is 8 out of a class of 180. Just looking at the Yearbook picture to answer your question brought back memories of how competitive we all were. Like I was thinking "Hey, Tom (my friend) didn't make it! Adzick didn't make it, either!" different era
K-12 nowadays discourages explicit competition. For example, no teacher would be allowed to put on the classroom wall the results of the latest test for each student. Much less put up ranked lists of the people in the class.
This makes for a more comfortable environment for most females and a less challenging one for males, one of the many reasons that males do considerably worse in school than females.
I never would have expected literal grade inflation on the SAT. Now I'm curious what they were thinking.
You know what they were, and are, thinking: not enough women and minorities (excluding Asians) are getting top scores. Therefore it’s unfair.
Hadn't even crossed my mind but it probably should have. I can see how it is likely to increase the share of women with top scores but I'm not pretty sure it wouldn't for minorities.
I went to Wash U (Hyman Minsky was briefly my advisor.) In 1976-77 I cooked at a local singles restaurant named "The Leather Bottle" and became the chef after graduating. It was in the department store "Famous Barr" or something like that. Back then, every restaurant was a singles restaurant. The Goodle Days, as John Hartford would say.
Famous-Barr opened in Clayton in 1948. It was part of the May Department Store empire. One of the heirs was an upper-class star swimmer and water polo player when I was a freshman at Clayton High.
The owners wanted to have the store in University City, but NIMBYs would not let them. This dealt a blow to the U City tax base from which it never recovered.
The Midwest is a good place to be from.
I have only personally heard it said about Iowa more than 30 years ago.
When I asked google for the etymology of the idiom it couldn't come up with anything that wasn't vague. When I asked chatgpt to explain the phrase and then give an etymology it was a good quite specific answer. "The expression “a good place to be from” appears to have emerged around the 1940s–1960s, often used by veterans, migrants, or college-educated rural Americans who left their small towns for bigger opportunities." "The line may have gained traction in the 1970s–1980s, especially in the Midwest, as economic shifts (e.g., farm crises) led more young people to leave."
https://chatgpt.com/share/683a46c6-4d0c-800f-86fe-3922028de8bf
I went to get pizza soon after moving to St. Louis in the mid-80s. It was provided through a slot in bulletproof glass. I thought it was cool and didn't worry about it. I loved living in the CWE, knowing there was danger close by.
It was the first time I had exposure to Jewish folks and the rich kids from neighborhoods like Ladue. When you are from a poor rural area, that was pretty cool too. Got teased about being a Southern Baptist and attended an American Baptist church, which was about as rebellious as I get.
Sounds like a sketchy pizzeria. Should have gone to Talayna's.
I liked the Hill; places like Ragazzies, although I was scared of places that served beer at first. Bullet-proof glass at Pizza Hut was o.k. Places like Talayna's were for after you get married (at least for me), although I didn't know it then.
Wow, small world. I am less than two months younger than Altman and went to Wash U in the mid-aughts.
Some of my favorite (admittedly nichey) posts of yours/Arnold’s are the descriptions of Clayton/STL in the 20th century. There was a lot that seemed weird to me about how STL worked, being an outsider almost entirely confined to The Wash U Bubble, and reading about the recent(ish) history of the area helps put into context some of the area’s idiosyncrasies. Thanks!
Happily there is nothing “distinctly odious” about modern ̶s̶e̶g̶r̶e̶g̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ living arrangements.
I think it’s cool how we can see from our vantage how people used to make such uniformly poor decisions, with no regard for anything either rational or human, whereas now, we would never make such errors, and selfish ones at that. We know that nothing we do is based on any sort of misconception about what is possible or desirable, nor ever something we would not be able to articulate - but instead fine-spirited always.
It’s a good feeling because the news tries to make you doubt, about urban trends, and city life - but you are safe in the knowledge it’s the least distinctly odious of all possible worlds, because free of the prejudices and compromises and foibles of past people.
AP tests go back to the 1950s, according to the Internet