Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Scott Gibb's avatar

"I enjoyed the podcast myself, until about this point, where I felt lost. The Zvi’s comments add a lot of value."

Me to ChatGPT: "Help me understand synthetic data generation in this context:" <Insert entire paragraph>

Her response:

🧠 1. What Humans Do: “Synthetic Data Generation” via Reflection

When humans sleep, daydream, or reflect, they reprocess information in rich, diverse ways:

-They simulate alternative interpretations or scenarios (“What if this character had done X instead?”).

-They connect new ideas to existing memories.

-They compress and generalize knowledge — creating abstractions or insights.

-They often generate new internal “data” (thoughts, dreams, analogies) that helps them learn better the next time.

In ML terms, humans are augmenting their own dataset by internally generating new, high-entropy (diverse and information-rich) samples that preserve structure and meaning.

🤖 2. What LLMs Actually Do

An LLM trained with standard next-token prediction is not doing this kind of internal data generation. When it reads a book (inference), it just predicts the next token given context — that’s it.

-It doesn’t “store” new insights or compress them into durable latent structures.

-It doesn’t meaningfully “talk to itself” or “rehearse” multiple versions and integrate them.

-Every generation is effectively a fresh sampling from the same static probability distribution.

So even if you ask an LLM to “think about” a text 10 times, you don’t get 10 different internal reflections — you get 10 nearly identical draws from a sharply peaked distribution.

👉 That’s what Andrej means by “the distribution is terrible.”

It looks fine locally (each sample sounds coherent), but it lacks entropy and diversity globally.

⚗️ 3. Why Synthetic Data Usually Hurts LLMs

If you try to use an LLM to generate its own training data (so-called self-training or bootstrapping) and then retrain it on that output, the model’s knowledge often collapses:

-The generated data tends to smooth over details, losing variance and nuance.

-Repeatedly training on such low-entropy data produces mode collapse — the model becomes blander and less expressive (the “3 jokes” problem).

-The model’s uncertainty is not calibrated — it can’t explore multiple interpretations like a human mind reflecting on a text.

So instead of learning deeper structure, it amplifies its own biases and narrows the distribution of possible responses.

🧩 4. Why This Is Hard to Fix

Humans retain entropy because of:

-Noisy, multi-modal learning signals (vision, emotion, memory, embodiment).

-Iterative reflection processes that integrate and diversify understanding.

-Compression guided by meaning, not just likelihood prediction.

LLMs lack that. Once they’re trained, they’re essentially frozen functions with no internal dynamic that encourages creative reorganization or exploratory rehearsal.

Researchers are exploring ways to mimic this:

-Reflection loops (e.g. self-RAG, “let’s think step-by-step then critique and revise”).

-Diverse sampling and distillation (generate multiple hypotheses, select diverse ones).

-Agentic self-play (models debating or tutoring themselves).

-Training with reinforcement from diversity (rewarding entropy preservation).

But none of these yet capture the qualitative richness of human daydreaming or reflection — that natural generation of novel, semantically meaningful diversity.

Expand full comment
Scott Gibb's avatar

Can AI make pencil? At the scale and scope of "I, Pencil" I would say "not profitably." You could certain try, but the cost (without markets) would be enormous. Transaction costs combined with our ever changing world make it highly unlikely that it would be worth it. Capitalism is a profit and lost cultural technology that constantly adapts to change. AI can't keep up with our physically changing world. There are too many sensors to setup, to be adjusted, maintained; there are too many unknowns in living organisms, weather, culture, etc. Too many things will go wrong or change. So no, AI will always be dependent on us.

At a deeper level, I would say, "AI doesn't have the gift of life." Life automatically adapts to change. AI doesn't and can't. AI is dependent on life in order to be adaptive, and it will never exceed the adaptive capability of living organisms.

Why is this?

I would say that AI doesn't have wants and desires that are perpetually adaptable. AI isn't fast enough to keep up with change. We need to give it new wants and desires in order for it to keep up with change. We will constantly need to intervene to help it adapt to change. It will always be a step behind change.

Like writing and books, AI is just an extension of our mind; a prothesis of the mind; an exteriorization of our thinking.

Hence, the adaptability of AI approaches an asymptote relative to change in the physical world. In order to keep up (exceed?) with the physical world, transaction costs have to be sufficiently low. Only living things can make transactions costs sufficient low (in order to stay alive).

AI is a quasi-lifeless tool. We on the other hand, have the gift of life, which allows us to adapt sufficiently fast (faster than?) relative to the rate of change of lifeless matter and other life forms. At least I hope. I'm not yet sure how life will get off this rock, or how it got here. And probably never will.

Background reading: Interview with Douglas North by Arnold Kling and Nick Schulz.

Expand full comment
7 more comments...

No posts